i'm going to save that tape. jane wells in los angeles. jane, thank you. thanks for joining us for continued coverage. we'll see what tonight brings if there's any news out of washington. of course, the premarket, be sure to watch "squawk" in the morning for that. eamon, kayla, robert, thank you. the "kudlow report" starts right now. do we or do we not have a deal? we had a lot of optimistic reports today and some near misses. but we're still waiting for something definite ift from capitol hill. one thing has become clear. this entire thing is about the budget cutting sequester which democrats want to stop. the obama care reforms, off the table. we'll have live reports throughout the hour. markets rallied across the board. are they jumping the gun or being real smart? on a different subject, computer glitches are one thing but now the nation is suffering from obama care sticker shock.

you want to keep your insurance premiums affordable, you may be looking at a stunning annual deductible of $12,700. that's not good. these stories and more coming up on "the kudlow report" starting right now. good evening, everyone. i'm larry kudlow. tyler mathisen joins me on set. we're live here at 7:00 p.m. and 4:00 p.m. pacific. waiting for budget news of a potential deal in washington, d.c. joining us now live from washington, d.c., robert costa, washington editor of "the national review." robert, we thought we had meetings, thought we had deals. what happened? >> things are postponed for right now, larry. you have a very narrow gap between senate democrats and senate republicans. a deal seems to be close. right now, they're not ready to

unveil it or confirm it. >> what's breaking this thing up? >> as you mentioned in your opening, sequestration, democrats are pushing harry reid to get some kind of sequestration fixes. they want to change the budget control levels from the 2011 spending bill. >> will they? i'm going to ask an odd question. when you look at how this whole thing progressed from big reforms, defunding obama care and rolling back obama care for a year or so, all that seems to be off the table. maybe there's a little obama care stuff in there, maybe. we don't even know that. maybe the republicans would have been better off taking a clean bill, clean debt ceiling right away, clean continuing resolution right away. they sure didn't get what they thought they were going to get. >> senate republicans expect harry reid to back off these sequestration requests. reid knows that will not pass the republican house. what the offer is right now as it stands is an extension of the

debt ceiling and a funding bill for the government into early 2014, plus a budget conference. this would be further tax talks and entitlement talks later this year. that would be required as part of the deal. >> tyler? >> robert, whatever happened to the idea that these bills, a continuing resolution and a debt ceiling raise were going to have no strings attached until the democrats decided it was okay if they were my strings attached? >> what's happened now is that republicans have started at defund, they've gone to repeal and then to delay. as the clock ticks and a potential default nears, you see republicans really on the ropes that's why senate democrats are pressing them to get something on sequester. they think republicans are vulnerable to cave. that's why they're trying to get a concession. >> robert, we're going to have you throughout the show. we appreciate your inputs on the spot. do you think if the deal is what we think it is, which has certain dates, we'll get into that later on the budget and sequestration.

do you think the republicans without any real obama care reform, do you think the republicans in the house will vote for this deal? >> i'm not so sure about that, larry. they're very skeptical of any senate-brokered deal. what i'm hearing from senate sources on both sides, this deal is fluid. they expect to get between 70 and 89 votes in the senate. if that happens, that's going to put real pressure on boehner to take it up. >> agreed. you're dead right. many thanks to robert costa. as majority leader harry reid and minority leader mitch mcconnell seek to eke out a deal that could shop the government shutdown, spending cuts still a big sticking point. listen to what the president said last week. >> we're willing to reopen the government that reflect republican wishes, don't at all reflect our wishes. >> okay. but it seems like sequester

budget cuts rather than obama care reforms have taken over as the key issue. also looks like republicans got very little out of this deal, maybe besides some political notoriety. we're joined by pennsylvania democratic senator, mr. bob casey. senator casey, as always, great to see you. >> thanks, larry. >> i know the deal is not put in cement, so forth. but from what we gather, these budget deadlines are going to have a lot to do with the deal. and the democrats do not want sequestration. they don't want next year's budget cuts at the 2014 lower level. is that true? >> larry, first and foremost what this should have been about from the beginning was about the budget. there were folks, mostly the tea party folks, maybe exclusively, who wanted this to be a fight about health care and other issues. we're finally back to the point of debating what this should have been from the beginning, which is a debate about this year's budget and spending. but i think what's happened in the last couple of days or maybe even longer than that is that a

number of republicans now are agreeing with us. you've got to open the government. you've got to pay your bills. you can't default. and then we have to sit down and work on not just this year's budget, this year's spending levels but also have a discussion about the long term. >> let me ask you a little bit about obama care. the last reports i got from our washington guy, john harwood, were that there were two items that might be a part of any, quote, deal that gets done. one would be to address the question of income verification, part of obama care, and the other was to delay for a year a so-called re-insurance tax, a fee of about $63 a person that apparently unions have objected to. are those two things going to be part and parcel of any deal? and if so, why are those acceptable now when a week or so ago your party and the president said, we're not going to negotiate anything having to do with obama care?

>> i think two things. number one, this is very fluid. nothing's written down. so a lot of it now is speculation. some of it more informed speculation than others. so it's very fluid. we can't say for sure. i would say this, though, from the beginning, the way i've viewed this and i think even others -- i would think even folks in the administration, there's always been a very clear message in terms of the debt ceiling. we have to pay our bills, you can't default. so you don't negotiate over that. but there's always been a willingness to take a look at any way that would make sense where the parties could come together to continue the funding of the government and even have debates about other issues. but we have never seen, in my time in the senate, and certainly folks have been here even longer. i'm here almost seven years. the combination of people saying they wanted to shut the government down or shutting the government down was worth it to make a point or even as reckless as it is to go over the line on the debt ceiling in ways that we

don't even want to contemplate. i think we're reaching a point now where there is some really productive discussions. but i guess i see it differently in terms of how we arrived here. but i'm hoping that by tomorrow morning, we'll have some details and maybe have some votes tomorrow. but we're really low on time now. >> i think it's fair to say, senator, that the final arrival is a lot different than the very beginning of this voyage. but we'll put that aside. i want to ask you about something. i don't know if it's true. it's been widely touted in some blogs and so forth. there's going to be a budget deadline, a longer-term budget deadline in mid december. some people are saying december 13th. it looks a lot suspiciously like another super committee like we had a couple of years ago. and that in turn suggests that in about, what, 2 months, 2 1/2 months, we're going to have another fiscal cliff moment. is that possible?

>> it's certainly possible, larry, because things are pretty fluid. but i would say this -- the opportunity to sit down and talk about a whole range of issues when you don't have two deadlines, meaning a deadline to keep the government open or a deadline to agree on a continuing resolution, and the debt ceiling deadline, to be freed up from both of those deadlines should be helpful. i realize that this will impose some short-term deadlines if the deal as reported goes through. but i don't think there's anyone around here in either party that thinks it's a bad idea to be sitting down and talking about the budget. >> of course you're right. talking is good. this whole idea of not negotiating was not good. but looking at these reports, you've got a longer-term budget deadline in mid december. you've got the budget continuing resolution goes through mid january. that's a very important date in terms of the sequester. and then finally the debt

ceiling goes through early february. in other words, every one of these is, what i would regard, as very short term in the way the congress works at a snail's pace. i think you would agree with me. you have major decisions coming right back at us in mid december, mid january and early february. if my math serves me, that's 3 1/2-something months, four months, max. that ain't much. >> larry, it's not the ideal circumstances. but i would say this, i would hope the agreement -- i may not prevail in this. i would hope that the agreement would consider or would enshrine a longer time period as it relates to the debt ceiling. we can have short-term budget agreements. it's frustrating but manageable. we should never, ever go through this drill every couple of months on the debt ceiling. we should have much longer -- we should have time periods of much longer duration. fight about the budget and issues like that. but not have this debt ceiling brinksmanship which we know -- and it's irrefutable. we know from 2011 just the

debate and just getting close to the deadline itself is very damaging for the economy. we should get away from that. even though it can be frustrating to have shorter-term budget deadlines. but at least it looks like we're going to be able to open up the government and get through this non-default as we all hope for. >> obviously as you said earlier, things are very fluid and developing and who knows what the ultimate points of a hard bargain will be. but to larry's point, if you have a mid december deadline on trying to reach a broader budget agreement for the long term and you don't come to an agreement, then you're looking in mid january and then early february, the 7th, on the debt ceiling thing. we'd be right back where we are with one more avenue foreclosed. if this agreement can't be reached mid december, then what's your way out? >> here's the reason -- no one likes the short-term month or

two to work out a budget agreement. here's the problem. this is the way i look at it. sequestration is bad for everyone. it's bad public policy. bad for our national security, bad for our economy, bad for people that rightfully have a right to expect that the federal government can help them get through their day. but just look at defense. that alone should be one of the reasons that we sit down and try our best to shut off sequestration because if you're going to have the cuts to defense that are contemplated maybe as high as $20 billion. the defense has already taken a hit of some $35 billion, you start to hit defense, you start to hit programs that involve medical research in ways that allow our economy to grow. this whole problem of sequestration, i know some people are getting used to it, is very, very bad. no business would run their operations this way. no family would. you have to prioritize what makes sense in terms of investing in the economy, investing in research, investing

in education, and making sure our defense is strong. but the way this has played out, some people, apparently some republicans, think that sequestration is fine. i think it's bad policy. and i think we should try to unwind it as fast as we can. >> i would love to have another segment and talk to you about all that. senator collins was going to amend sequestration in ways and means that i would have liked. senator bob casey, always a pleasure having you back on the show. thank you, sir. let's bring in our distinguished panel for this evening, cnbc contributor and former clinton white house aid, keith boykin, amity slaze, author of the book "coolidge." and robert costa still in washington to help us get through this. amity, what's your take on this? think about it in terms of

calvin coolidge, ronald reagan, bill clinton, i don't care. what's your take? >> there comes a point that you have to cut. and what i learned in researching coolidge who was president in the '20s was they could. they did. coming out of world war i we saw a lot of parallels. the economy was right rough. the government had gone places it had never gone before, nationalized the biggest industry, the railroad. spent a lot of money. was lying its head off about inflation. >> jacked up tax rates. >> yes. then they came in and said, we're going to cut. both parties did. and they cut like crazy. they have the government -- in fact, in the early '20s, they have the government and raised the interest rate 300 basis points, forcing a recession on the nation. and cleared it all out. why don't we remember that recession? it was so short. >> the moral of the story to you now is what? >> the moral is there's another economics and that taking care of the budget matters a lot.

>> small budget, lower tax rates, deregulation. >> tyler, over to you. >> it occurs to me, if we were ever able to get to a point where we had a reform of the tax code, which you've been calling for for years, and got to a smaller government, less intrusive government and we had some certainty, think of the growth and the unleashing effect that that would bring on american business and the american economy. right now what i see going on is a growth tax. >> that's exactly right. that's what we do at the george w. bush presidential center. we have a 4% growth project. if we grew at 4% instead of 2% or 3%, we would be able to just about have our deficits over the ten-year window. a lot of these problems -- how did this problem this week get started? it got started when we didn't have enough money coming in the treasury, right? and we didn't have enough money in part because we didn't have enough growth. >> do you like this deal, keith?

what you know of it, do you like this deal? >> two or three things. first in terms of coolidge and george w. bush, with coolidge, we ended up with a great depression at the end of the '20s. and we ended up with the great recession at the end of george w. bush's administration. >> it wasn't his fault. >> that's not really the issue for today. but in terms of this debt deal, i think the problem, we have to deal with debt and we have to deal with also the issue of growth. the most important issue -- i've said it for a long time -- larry summers said it today in the newspaper. we have to focus on growth. these policies about trying to cut the deficit right now are not where our priorities should be when unemployment is still too high. we have the stock market that's doing well but the economy is not -- the gdp rates are still not at the levels they should be at. that's where congress should be focused on. we need to get past this crisis management for running our

government. this is not a good solution for anyone. >> robert costa, what happened to the discussions that paul ryan was conducting and other people, where they were going to play entitlement reform and tax reform -- in my opinion, both would be pro-growth measures if done correctly. what happened to that nexus? >> it's still very much on schedule. if you look at this emerging deal, it has a budget conference for future fiscal talks later this year. that's what ryan's always been aiming for, to have a tax reform and entitlement reform. maybe sequester change for cpi. he floated those ideas in "the wall street journal." but he could never get that done in this compressed time period. that's why he's trying to push it forward to the end of the year. >> do you think in that sense, the republican house got something in this deal because there is a budget conference that's supposed to report on december 13th or thereabouts from the early report -- do you think therefore the gop has got something? >> when you look at divided

government and what the expectation should be for republicans, when you talk to ryan's allies, they say they've actually won something here, something minor but they've won a budget conference. the problem for john boehner is, as speaker, he's dealing with the conservative flank, 30 to 50 members who don't think anything that doesn't have a concession on obama care is worth voting for. >> and will he get their votes? >> i don't think so. so boehner's probably going to have to bring something to the floor, should he choose to, that would get between 100 and 160 house republicans and be the senate deal and he'd just have to endure that. even though it would be a shot at his power. >> thank you. one of the things that i think is so fascinating to me, having participated in these before, is what started out as really a full-scale assault on obama care with attempts to reform them radically. it's all gone. there may be some small -- as you said, income verification.

wound up being a traditional budget exercise. >> it has. it's gone back to focus on what it ought to focus on and that is spending and taxing and so forth and getting those kinds of things which are dearly important to some people out of this mix and away from complicating it in a way that was untenable for the administration to accept. >> we'll talk about whether the gop would have been better off taking a clean budget bill and a debt bill and then moving on from there. right now, we have to talk stocks. the dow is up more than 500 points over the last three sessions. are investors too optimistic about politics and ignoring the big earnings news about to come our way? we'll get some answers. don't forget, free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity. calvin coolidge was one of the great proponents of free market capitalism.

we'll be right back. >> this isn't some damn game. >> i'm ashamed. i'm embarrassed. all of us should be.

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welcome back to "the kudlow report." i'm seema mody with this market update. markets ended higher the fourth straight day of gains on continued hopes that there will soon be a deal to raise the debt ceiling and end the government shutdown. health care was the best-perfuming sector. the dow started the session sharply lower but staged a midday turnaround as reports on progress on the negotiations came in. we also want to show you the russell 2000 index of small cap stocks which hit another all-time high thanks to a resurgence in momentum names. the bond market was closed for

columbus day. >> big russell 2000, usually very bullish. jim lacamp joins us. let's pick up where seema mody left off. russell 2000, new all-time high. what's that mean? >> it's good news. you look at the russell and the mid caps, they're setting new highs. this market looks like it wants to go higher. the first thing to do is pay attention to the market. i think the market will go higher between now and the end of the year. we have performance-chasing issues. i think bonds are a risky investment. investors don't know what to do with them. the federal reserve is being painted into a second corner because of the one that they created but now because of the second one that washington is creating. and it makes bonds really less attractive than they used to be and stocks more attractive by proxy. so i think the market looks good. i think we're going to have issues once january comes around, valuations are getting higher. earnings are starting to become

compressed. for right now, the money looks like for the market. >> looks like the taper is off the table, maybe there's going to be some sort of deal. did we already have the resolution rally in stocks or if there is a deal that gets announced, let's say tomorrow, or certainly by thursday, how much higher do you think the market goes instantly? >> i think it goes higher instantly. but i think you might be right. the market has already factored in that we're going to get a deal. this isn't going to be a good deal. it doesn't cut the deficit or promote growth. it doesn't do anything to address the diabolic tax code that we have. they're really horse traders trading around a bunch of dead old nags. for now, i think the market's factored in a lot of this that we're going to get a deal. the fourth quarter, everybody knows the fourth quarter is historically our best quarter in the market. stocks are still -- we're seeing

a lot of growth industries attracting a lot of these -- we have some growth industries. >> i don't want to defend the deal. i don't even know what the deal is. and the deal is not doing what i hoped it would do. there are no tax hikes in this deal, that i know of. no tax hikes in this deal. second, spending has been coming down like a big rock, spending is now the lowest it's been since 2007, back-to-back years, haven't had this low a spending rate since the korean war. that's not bad. we're not getting the tax reform. but the fed's not going to tighten. so if you eke out earnings of 4%, 5%, why can't the stock market go up on fundamentals? >> it can. we're looking at a long-term, slow-growth economy, not only here but in europe and the rest of the world because of all the debt that's in the respective systems. i think we have to get used to

lower returns from all of the asset classes. and if you do that, if you lower your expectations, 4% is going to be pretty good. but, larry, if we get up to a 20 times earnings on this stock market, 4% isn't going to look that good. and it's going to become more of a stock selection market rather than a throw it all on the wall and it's all going to go up market. this is going -- the low-hanging fruit has been picked. the road forward is going to be rockier. but i think it favors stocks. >> well, i think 20 times earnings would be absolutely terrific. thanks to jim lacamp. >> i'll take it as well. what caused this huge crowd of shoppers to suddenly storm a walmart near shreveport, louisiana, this weekend? you're going to be shocked when you hear the backstory on this supermarket sweep, next up on "the kudlow report." geoff: i'm the kind of guy who doesn't like being sold to.

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welcome back to "the kudlow report." i'm seema mody with this news alert. a wild scene at two walmart stores in louisiana over the weekend. there was a huge outage in 17 states preventing stores from accepting ebt cards which are basically food stamp debit cards. but these two walmarts processed the transactions, even though no money was being debited from the customers' accounts. word spread quickly and the store was packed with people filling their carts to the brim. eventually the system came back up and people just abandoned their full carts and left the shelves looking as if they had been ransacked.

walmart said it accepted the cards during the outage so people could have food for their families. and xerox said there was a problem with its back-up system and when it tried to fix the issue, that ended up causing the outage. >> unbelievable. now we're going back live to washington, d.c. for the latest on the budget negotiations. do we have a deal? that's going to be next up on "the kudlow report." americans take care of business.

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welcome back to "the kudlow report." i'm joined by my pal and colleague, tyler mathisen. deal or no deal? there are reports tonight that senate leaders are close to a compromise which would raise the nation's near $17 trillion debt ceiling until mid february. back with us now live from washington, d.c., ace reporter, robert costa. timetable me, what's going to happen now? >> what's going to happen now, two important things are going to happen on tuesday. first, in the morning, house republicans will meet in the basement of the capitol to decide their strategy. if they did to not move forward with the senate plan, they have to send another legislative volley back up to the chamber.

the other thing that's going to happen on tuesday, senate republicans will meet and they're going to decide are they going to get behind mcconnell and back this idea? >> what's your early betting? senate republicans stay with mcconnell, is that a good bet? >> i don't bet. but what i'm hearing from my reporting. i'm hearing house republicans want to send something back to the senate that's a little more conservative than the deal being brokered right now. they're probably going to go through those legislative theatrics on tuesday. but ultimately, only the senate deal is the only thing that can pass. >> we're going to talk to one of the house republican leaders in just a moment. robert, we'll come back to you. please don't go far. even if senators reid and mcconnell get a compromise deal, will boehner get the votes from house conservatives. here now is georgia republican tom price. dr. tom price, welcome back to the show. >> good to be with you. >> from what you're hearing, what is the mood in the republican caucus?

is it inclined to endorse and vote for what's in the air, which is really just a bunch of budget deadlines? >> we're con froufounded by an administration that refuses to negotiate. i don't think there's a deal yet, however, if there is, we'll take a look at it and see if we can support it. but you identified it correctly. it's basically pushing the deadlines down either two or three months from this time. so the battle hasn't been lost. but it certainly looks like it's going to be kicked down the road for a period of time. >> let me ask you about that. when this battle started, this whole budget discussion, it was about defunding obama care. not realistic, in my humble opinion. but it was about defunding obama care. house republicans voted for it. senate republicans voted for it. that failed. then it moved back to a one-year delay for all of obama care. that was pushed out. then it went to a one-year delay

for the individual mandate of obama care. and that was pushed out. have you lost ground on all of this obama care stuff? is it a wall that's just too big to climb? >> i don't think so. in fact, i would raise two points. one, it is very, very clear that the democrats and the president now own this lock, stock and barrel. we have tried valiantly to try to modify the law in a positive way for patients, families and doctors. they own this completely. secondly, apparently in the deal that is being worked out by reid and mcconnell, senator reid has brought forward -- remember how it was sacrosanct that you couldn't change obama care? they're going to delay the $63 per person tax for large businesses and for unions. that's a sop to unions. so the law of the land that couldn't be changed now is going to be changed apparently because it's okay to provide that sop to unions. this doesn't make any sense to the american people.

the victory that's going to be had by house republicans is there's no doubt in the american people's mind is that this disastrous law is clearly on the shoulders of the president and the democrats. >> let's talk a little bit about the sketch of a deal that we have, sounds like there will be a reopening of the government and funding until january 15th, which coincides with a sequester date, a debt ceiling raise till the early days of february and some sort of budget conference that has a deadline of roughly the middle of december, to come up with some kind of an agreement on longer-term reforms that might obviate the need for a sequester and come to a longer-term framework in terms of cutting entitlements. if we get to mid december and the republicans and the democrats can't agree on that longer-term framework, aren't we right back here to where we are today looking at a closed

government and a debt ceiling that we're hard up against? >> you're absolutely right. but the difference will be that there will in fact hopefully be a budget conference. that's the normal process where we actually work through these challenges and find the common ground and see where the compromises are able to be held. the problem that we've had is that we have an administration and a president who refuse to lead. these kinds of things -- these real challenges aren't going to be solved until the president decides he's going to lead. and not lead as the leader of the democratic party but as the leader of the free world. that's what has to happen. >> tom, just quickly, on this pending republican vote tomorrow on the deal, the deal that we don't know about yet, if there's no delays in obama care, if there's no -- not even a medical tax device cut is in there. the vitter amendment to not exempt congress and the staff from obama care -- if that's not in there, if none of these obama care things are in there, how

many votes will you lose in the house republican caucus? >> if none of those things are in there, it will be a very lopsided vote. but, again, what this is, this is just washington as usual. this is kicking the can down the road. nobody wins, nobody loses except for the american people. and if you step back and recognize, as you do every single night, larry, that the real problem here is spending and borrowing and making an economy that doesn't work anymore because of governmental interference and government inaction, then the american people are the continued losers and that's where this debate needs to be. this needs to be all about spending and taxing and getting an economy that will begin to be thriving again. >> we'll leave it there. thank you, sir. we appreciate it. our panel is going to join us next up to chew on what mr. price just told us, whether the republicans got stung real bad in these negotiations and what the heck is going to happen now with the future budget deadlines which are just a couple of months away. here we go again.

so the president's position that, listen, we're not going to sit down and talk to you until you surrender is just not sustainable. >> once again, the football was moved just like lucy in the peanuts cartoon. >> i do not like green eggs and ham. >> this isn't some damn game. >> stop. stop attacking each other. i was made to work. make my mark with pride. create moments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic.

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our expert panel is back with us. amity, how angry are conservatives going to be in the republican party? they're really getting nothing of reform on obama care. they started up here, major reform. and they wound up close to ground zero. what's your take? >> in addition to the war between the democrats and the republicans over the budget, there's a war between the republicans and the republicans. and the more conservative republicans are going to be angry. but i think the whole party is in trouble. they are helping to kick the can

down the road, as you just said. it's time to revisit the past and see what republicans did in the past. >> keith, how much trouble -- the gop got hurt in the polls. polls don't necessarily determine the whole world. nobody really got helped in the polls but seemed like the republicans got hurt the most. >> if this had happened a year from now, it would have been disastrous. but the good thing for the republican party is this is happening so early, a year before the next midterm elections and gives them a chance to purge the right extremists from the party and listen to the moderates -- >> i don't see that happening. >> gives them a chance. doesn't mean they're going to do it. >> that was a bomb you just launched. >> i was trying to be generous. >> i want to know the ways and means that's going to happen. >> i don't think it's going to happen e they were. but it could happen. chuck todd the other day called the nbc news/"wall street

journal" poll -- this was a huge problem for the gop. it's not a problem that they can't fix but they've just got to make a shift. hopefully they can use this as an opportunity to change. >> bob costa, i want to ask you if there's a ted cruz wing of the gop and a paul ryan wing of the gop. and are those wings going to make themselves seen with clarity in this house vote on this deal? >> very much so. earlier this year, paul ryan gave a speech where he talked about the need for prudence in the republican party, especially in divided government. and senator cruz has many fans and many critics but he has been someone who's been very aggressive in pushing his own strategy during this showdown. what's going to be interesting in this house vote, if you listen closely to what congressman price said, he said anything that doesn't have obama care revisions attached to it, there's going to be a lopsided vote.

the question is, can paul ryan convince conservatives that this deal is palatable because it has a budget cut attached. >> the idea that could the gop have gotten more if they asked for less, in other words, if they had not started with the broad side against obama care, defund, then delay and so on and so forth, could they have gotten more of their core values setting that aside if they had started with somewhat less grandiose objectives, robert? >> it's hard to say. we can always monday morning quarterback. but when you look back at the real precedent for what's happening now, it's the 2011 grand bargain discussions. and republicans were able to get sequestration out of these discussions. they did push hard on the debt ceiling. what was different about 2011 compared to now is that republicans then were only fighting on the debt ceiling. there wasn't this combination of a government shutdown with a debt ceiling shutdown. and i think that combination has

confused the republican message in many ways and given them less of a chance to really get a concession out of the democratic party. >> amity, coolidge-like and reagan-like and clinton-like, i want to maintain the spending reductions, the sequestration. i might want to change it a lbt, as senator susan collins did, give a little more to military and a little less somewhere else. but i think that's a singular republican achievement in the past two years, bring spending way down. i think that's helped the economy. what's your take on that? >> there is a charm to budgeting. there is an art to it. that's what we look at in the '20s and in other periods, even in the periods with reagan. and it's worth our time. that's the main thing. what the voters are saying when they say throw everyone out now is we wish the congressmen would work together. >> 60% in that "the wall street journal" poll want to throw the entire congress out. >> perhaps on budgeting, perhaps

on entitlements, but that they would work together rather than turn outwards to the people. that's what i take from the past. >> it's funny, i've been thinking to myself, if my 401(k) goes down 30% because there's no deal, i won't vote for any incumbent in the next election cycles, not any of them. i just want to vote against whoever is not there today. >> how about the other side? if your 401(k) goes up 30% -- >> then i'll look at the merits of the case and say, who acted responsibly -- >> the stock market's gone up so much under the obama administration, the reason why people might continue to vote for obama is the democrats. >> thanks to our great panel. the book is available now. it's a great read. right now, the continuing problems with the obama rollout. you know about the website failings. now more and more americans are getting obama care sticker shock, so bad that one former

top obama administration official had this to say earlier today -- >> i hope they're working day and night to get this done and when they get it fixed, i hope they fire some people that were in charge of making sure this thing was supposed to work. 's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go.

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i want you to keep me doing this for another sixty years. at kaiser permanente, we want you to choose the doctor that's right for you. find your perfect match at kp.org and thrive. we're in week two of obama care enrollment. still major problems and glitches with the exchanges. listen to what aetna's ceo said

this morning. >> we're in a place now where there's so much wrong, you just don't know what's broken until you get a lot more of it fixed. >> even beyond those glitches, it's the sticker shock that has a lot of people concerned. buyers are discovering deductibles as high as $6,000 for individuals and over 12 grand for families. with deductibles that high, is having obama care like not having insurance at all? here now is radiologist dr. eric snipper. what are you going to do about this? family, $12,500 deductible. >> we are in a brave new world now. to categorize where i think this is going is a disaster of biblical proportions. i envision a situation where we have patients who are unable to afford health care who have a choice between paying $7,000, $8,000 for premium above and beyond where we are right now off of a $50,000 income or choosing a high deductible plan where they have to get to $12,000 to reach their deductible. i think people are going to come

to my office and start bargaining like it's a flea market. >> make a deal with you, put the insurance aside. >> in an existential world, that's not a bad idea. but structuring this the way it is, as a haphazard de facto way, it's not going to be effective. we're winging it. and it's going to be a disaster as i find it. and the problem is, you look back at the economist who in 1963 wrote a seminal paper about the disparity between what the patients know and their knowledge of medicine versus what the doctor can inform them of, and there's no greater disparity than there is for medicine. it's a lot easier to decide which stereo to buy if you read a magazine. but even with the internet, to figure out what you need, that mri or that cat scan or that surgery. it takes that training and understanding. it's going to be difficult when patients have to lay out $12,000 to make that decision. it puts us in a dangerous position. >> the system -- i buy your point. but it seems to me that

insurance ought to be used -- what insurance ought to be used for, and that is to defray the expense of things that you can't pay for yourself, catastrophic events. that's what we do with our home insurance. we don't use our insurance to pay for the minor repair. and in health insurance, seems to me that's ultimately where we ought to go, where the individual pays for more of the coverage and the insurance pays for the catastrophic event. >> your point is well taken. but i think that the american people are not ready for this. i don't think they understand. they were sold a bill of goods by this president who said, you can keep your doctor and your health plan. and they said, fine. let's not quibble about insuring 30 million or 40 million people. let's take care of them but at what expense? at the expense of the other 90%-plus of the population. >> "chicago tribune" does a study on this. this is not a far-right newspaper. the guy, 33-year-old guy, in

order to have the same network of doctors and hospitals and providers would have to pay twice what he's paying now, this is $233 app month for his premium. he'd have to double that if he wants to keep his deduction now. he can't do that. can't afford to do it. what's going to happen here? >> you're going to see people's credit card expenses going up. there are going to be defaults. people make the decision, do i keep my house or do i get my daughter an operation? >> why is this? why are these numbers so bad? >> you look at what was the real agenda here? was this really meant to insure people and provide the best care? was it a money transference? i have my doubts. >> and the mandates, one size fits all mandate. >> looking at the mandates, why not delay the individual mandate the way the employer mandate has been delayed for a year?

>> they tried in congress. couldn't get it through. thanks, doctor. thanks for coming back on the set. that's it for tonight's show. thanks to tyler mathisen. join us tomorrow night. i'm going to be joined by my pal, ann coulter. we'll put a little electricity until this whole story. thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. make my mark i wawith pride.ork. create moments of value. build character through quality.

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